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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999
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Location: Seattle, WA USA
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idanity
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 3097
Location: N.W.U.S.A.
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 Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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very interested.
please update on your results. afaik the only other drop in swap is the 19lb ford mustang types and i don't think they are 4hole.
overall, i am skeptical, on this statement
''These an upgrade for the M20 engine due to their 4 hole spray pattern which improves fuel efficiency and overall performance. ''
isnt that an oxymoron ?
if you gain efficiency, don't you lose performance (and vice versa) ?
but logically, it is a good deal...those injectors are going for over $100.oo each using the part numbers, just curious on what gains are true. *even durablity and less likely to clog using poor grade fuel ?
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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999
Posts: 3087
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Code: | | improves fuel efficiency and overall performance |
Improving efficiency is all about improving either fuel mpg while not hurting performance, or improving performance without hurting fuel mpg.
OR, improving both, even better.
That _is_ efficiency, getting more HP or more MPG or both, from a gallon of fuel.
Found there are some other options, a newer generation Bosch injector...
Some M42 guys are using a newer generation Mustang injector that's rated around 19 pounds
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233
Wonder if that would work in an M20, maybe with an AFPR(adjustable fuel pressure regulator) to keep the overall AFR in a good HP/economy range.
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87 325 5spd eta
Last edited by dale on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999
Posts: 3087
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Injector sizing:
Determined by 2 things, flow rating, and fuel pressure:
cc/min = cubic centimeters/minute
Mustang injector is 0280150556 210.0 cc/min at 43.7psi (3 bar)
Ford 4.0 injector is 0280155700 204.0 cc/min at 43.7psi (3 bar)
M42 injector is 0280150714 213.9 cc/min at 43.7psi (3 bar)
M50 injector is 0280150415 190.2 cc/min at 50.75psi (3.5 bar)
M50 injector is 0280150415 180 cc/min at 43.7psi (3 bar)
According to this auction, these 19# 87-95 Mustang injectors are a direct drop in fit for the (1988)325e
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-FORD-BOSCH-19LB-19-LB-MUSTANG-5-0L-87-95-93-MPI-FUEL-INJECTORS-DESIGN-III-/150730513858?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item23183d1dc2#ht_1217wt_1015
This seller claims these White or Beige Gen III injectors are a drop-in for the M20 325i and have the specs below
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Generation-III-Bosch-17lb-Fuel-Injectors-BMW-1987-93-M20-2-5L-BRAND-NEW-/370365198393?pt=Race_Car_Parts&vxp=mtr&hash=item563b7c7039#ht_1346wt_781
Injector type: EV6, saturated
Flow rate: 17lbs/hr - 187 cc/min
Injector Body: White composite plastic
Length: 3 inches, 74 mm
Diameter: 19 mm
Orings: Top and bottom, 14.5 mm
Resistance: 12.8-14.5 Ohms
Yellow EV6 type, from Ford 4.0 motors
Ford 4.0 injector is 0280155700 204.0 cc/min at 43.7psi (3 bar)
Stock E30 325i fuel injector specs:
Injector Body Design: Metal and composite plastic
Old Bosch Part Number: 0280150715
New Part Number: 0280150710 (See photos)
Length: 3 inches, 74 mm
Diameter: 24 mm
Orings: Top and bottom, 14 mm
Resistance: 14.5-16 Ohms
Filtered with a modern single-pintle fuel delivery nozzle.
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87 325 5spd eta
Last edited by dale on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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85-325e
Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 4712
Location: Southampton, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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According to that auction, the only 325e it's a drop-in replacement for is the 1988...
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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999
Posts: 3087
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed, I added a note that it's for the 1988 only. I'll look for newer ones that are a swap into the 84-87 eta.
I've seen one quote of getting a 15% gain. If I'm getting 25mpg now with mixed driving, 25*15%=(2.5+1.25)=3.75...
I'm pretty skeptical of getting a 3+mpg improvement. Maybe this guy started with dirty injectors.
I would be happy with a 2mpg improvement though.
For fuel mileage in my 92 325ic, measured by miles and gallons pumped into the tank, is around 25mpg in day to day driving around, and about 29mpg for all highway road trips. I'd be very happy to see those jump to 27mpg and 31mpg.
Dale
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87 325 5spd eta |
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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999
Posts: 3087
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Right now these injectors look like a good upgrade to me for the M20 325i:
Part Number lbs/hr cc /min grams /min PSI BARS lbs/hr cc /min 80% 95% Feed Imped Application n-H
0-280-150-715 14.5 152.4 109.6 43.5 3 14.5 152.4 22.3 26.5 Top High BMW 4-1.6l, 4-1.8l, 6-2.5l, v12-5.0l, v12-5.4l E30 325i lt. blue -- stock
0-280-155-844 14.3 150.3 108.1 43.5 3 14.3 150.3 22 26.1 EV6 High Ford v6-4.0l BMW E30 325i subst
0-280-150-715 Stock M20 325i flow rating is 14.5 pounds / 152.5 cc/min at 3.0bar/43.5psi
0-280-155-844 1995 Ford v6 4.0 flow rating is 14.3 / 150.3 at 3.0bar/43.5psi
===========
1984-1987 325eta
0-280-150-126 2.5bar 28.1 33.4 EV1 Low BMW 6-2.7l(eta) - E30 325e gray
0-280-150-126 18.27 192 138.1 43.5 3 18.27 192 28.1 33.4 EV1 Low BMW 6-2.7l(eta), 3.0l, Renault 4-1.7l, 4-2.2l, Eagle 6-3.0l - E30 325e gray
Possible newer design injector for 325e, would need to verify it is low impedence:
0-280-155-007 18.27 192 138.1 43.5 3 18.27 192 28.1 33.4 - Low Jaguar v12-5.3l, v12-6.0l - Possible BMW E30 325e subst
Interesting article on upgrading fuel injectors:
http://www.ausjeepoffroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92236
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idanity
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 3097
Location: N.W.U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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please let us know what you try. and how it works.
are these elligible for a pro3 ?
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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999
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Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Not legal in PRO3 since it doesn't come from the factory like that.
For fuel mixture in PRO3 you can change the chip, or add a piggy-back system onto the Motronic to adjust the air/fuel ratio.
Dale
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haber
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1663
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure it was mentioned but the early eta injectors are low impedance and almost all the others are high. So I guess the 88 super e switched to high resistance injectors.(oops I see you did mention the impedance)
fwiw I used the Ford 19lb injectors in my M30 535i and they worked great. These were FOTE D5B or Bosch 556 to replace original 714 as listed like the M42. I believe Gen II so they are non pintle but single hole. Gen III are non pintle 4 hole I think. From what I read the Gen II are the least likely to plug up and I can't see where a 4 hole Gen III would matter much on a batch fired system like these old cars have. It's why periodic valve cleaning or hot soaks are needed in the first place.
Five-O-Motorsports was a really good resource for info but I got 8 new Ford D5B injectors for something like $100 than bought another 4 for and sold the second set of 6.
In my case the M30 was leaning out under full throttle high rpm due to weak 200+k injectors and the Ford parts fixed this. They were also leaking at the bodies in cold weather.
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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999
Posts: 3087
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:43 am Post subject: |
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haber: thanks for your feedback, I read a bunch of stuff on the five-o website, lots of good information there.
I got my new injectors in the mail today. It'll be next week before I can get them installed. They are Bosch Gen III, original spec on a 1995 Ford 4.0 V6.
Bought them from this outfit, socaljunking, on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/sch/socaljunking/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=
It'll be next week before I'll have time to install them, but I'll let you know how it goes.
Dale
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gr8acclaim
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 95
Location: Greenfield, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| dale wrote: | 0-280-150-715 Stock M20 325i flow rating is 14.5 pounds / 152.5 cc/min at 3.0bar/43.5psi
0-280-155-844 1995 Ford v6 4.0 flow rating is 14.3 / 150.3 at 3.0bar/43.5psi
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Am I reading this right? It sounds to me like you'll be providing LESS fuel and expecting it to do better (or at least no worse)? I get the idea of a 4 hole injector providing better atomization from your fuel, but I'm skeptical that it would net much of a gain, either in power or mileage. And I'd be uncertain, ultimately, whether any mileage gain would have come from the improved atomization or from just basically squirting less fuel...
I, for one, am curious to know if you get any bonus from it though. And I would like to thank you for putting down what year and model they come from, for those of us who are scrap-heap-part-pickers and who would love to pick up a few mpg (or HP) for a *small* fist full of dollars.
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1991 BMW 325i -- 158,546 miles (plus ? miles when the odo didn't work!) |
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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999
Posts: 3087
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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During open loop operation, cold startup and Wide Open Throttle, I expect it will be running slightly leaner.
During closed loop operation, 90%+ of the time, the O2 sensor will compensate for these being a little larger then factory and cut back on fuel.
I think these black injectors from Bosch, OE on a Volvo are likely a better fit then the ones for the Ford.
1993-94 VOLVO 960 96 97 850 2.4 FUEL INJECTORS 6 pcs
Bosch # 0 280 155 702
As for year/model of the yellow Ford ones, I had that in the other post: 1995 Ford v6 4.0
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gr8acclaim
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 95
Location: Greenfield, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Did we ever get those injectors in and tested any? It's getting springy out there and I'm itching to go parts picking...
One of the things that I really need to go through this year is the fuel system. It would be swell to throw in a few little upgrades for cheap at the same time.
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1992 Plymouth Sundance Duster -- 263,000 miles -- RIP due to rust;
1991 BMW 325i -- 158,546 miles (plus ? miles when the odo didn't work!) |
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fporro
Joined: 27 Jun 2000
Posts: 218
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yeap, any updates ?.
Just picked up as set of green 0 280 150 415 and wondering.
I'm running the 4 pintle yellow ones now at 3.0bar
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e30 parts bin
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