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board_nerd · Joined: 28 May 2002 Posts: 1015 Location: SE US

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Doesn't this sound like a better idea than trying to swat a gnat with a frying pan?

No. It's still chasing a symptom rather than understanding and treating the disease. Terrorism is violent propoganda, designed to draw attention to a cause. What's Bin Laden's cause? It's multifactorial, but can be distilled into wanting the US out of Saudi Arabia (and the Middle East) and Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza. Regardless of his "cause", he's preaching to the disenfranchised, poor Arab public, who identify with his message of resistance = strength. The reasons they are poor and disenfranchised is also multifactorial, but are rooted in 100+ years of colonialism, corrupt Arab monarchies and near sighted US foreign policy. Despite the prevailing attempt to cast this whole thing as a religious war (Christianity v. Islam), or some eschatological wet dream Good v. Evil struggle, it's actually far more mundane, and boils down to the haves v. the have nots. Chasing terrorists is like chasing germs. They are always there. Simple precautions prevent major infection. Despite what the Bush junta is trying to sell, "they" don't hate you. "They", i.e. your average Middle Easterner, actually like you. They like your cars. Your jobs. Your standard of living. But they can't have it, and that breeds resentment, and Bin Laden steps in and fills the void. Want to defeat terrorism? Take away that which allows it to grow and fester. Don't send them bombs. Send them computers. Send them jobs. Support reform minded Arab regimes, rather than undermining them with half-cocked wars. Sounds absurdly naive, eh? And a lousy sell to a blood lust, paranoid American public that needs something blowing up to believe we're fighting back.

panzerkeil302 · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2182

Good points...

patrick66 · Joined: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 623 Location: Oklahoma

What you both fail to notice is that the Islamic fanatics see this as "their" version of the Crusades. In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand ALSO forced the Moors out of the Iberian Peninsula, eliminating the remaining Muslim presence in Europe and ending the Crusades. Islam has a loooonnnng memory, and used the bombings in Madrid as a form of payback for that. Look at the huge Muslim immigration in Europe these days. It is NOT the same Europe from when I was there in '89-'92. Crime is up, as are the number of bums and wanderers, due in part to the European lax immigration policies and liberal asylum criteria. It is NOT the case of have vs. have not. If so, how do you explain the number of terrorists that have master's degrees, and are doctors, lawyers, engineers, and such. They are far from the minority of these thugs! They resent the West for what we are - free! Notice there is NOT a democratically-run Western-style republic that is also Muslim-dominated??? Turkey may be the closest thing, but they are still wanting in liberty and freedom.

Bin Laden made his billions from the construction business, Saudi bin Laden, LLC. His family claims to have "disowned" him. Sure! In a bit of real irony, his company built the Prince Sultan Air Base, 100 km SW of Riyadh, where US troops were at for several years.

Using your logic, we shouldn't retaliate because we might provoke more violence in return; the "violence begets violence" nonsense. Look at Israel over the past few months: they've gone after many of the leaders of Hezbollah, Hamas, and all those other "peaceful" terror organizations with much success. There has been little of the homicide bombers floating around there recently, because the Israelis are going after these thugs with a vengeance! The terrorists recognize and respect one thing: power. If a powerful response is delivered to a particular event, this slows down those number of events significantly! Our country wussed out in response to the Beirut embassy bombing, the first WTC bombing, the Khobar Towers, the embassy bombings in Africa, and the USS Cole, among others. Notice how "no response" from us did NOT make the terror thugs happy; it just emboldened them to do more!!! Our response in Afghanistan and Iraq have had many positive results around the world!!! And there IS such a thing as "good versus evil" in this; you'd need to be utterly blind not to see that!

But, the past is indeed in the past. We have to finish what was started to save our nation. The terrorists are a patient bunch, and they are willing to drag this out over 20-30 years to accomplish their goals. Do you want to wait that long, or are you willing to fight for liberty and your country??? Keep undermining the troops, second-guessing the President, and being a useful idiot to the press and you'll soon see the results otherwise...

panzerkeil302 · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2182

"Using your logic, we shouldn't retaliate because we might provoke more violence in return"

Eeeer, wrong answer, try again.

That is not at all what I said.

I said we need to attack the small factions surgically. You want to invade a country that has a small cell living in it. The problem with that, aside from cost, is loss of life. You will kill thousands of Americans chasing a tiny spec. Killing Americans is very unAmerican.

Small, quiet, precision strikes, backed by special ops and intel…he have the ability to find them.

Pat66, you also seem to be grouping all muslims as terrorists….of course I am misreading you on this, because that would be beneath even your reasoning.

I’d like the troops to come home…is that undermining the president? I’m not saying we don’t need to strike out against terrorists, I’m saying it's an imbecile plan to invade every country…..it’s like an argument a 14 year-old would make…with no vision or understanding about mass genocide of an entire race... for the actions of a small group. It's the thinking of a small mind. That is what Hitler did.

The greatest thing you can do as an American is question your leaders…it is how we became America. 5th grade US history – or do you want to debate that also?

[ 06-18-2004: Message edited by: panzerkeil302 ]

panzerkeil302 · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2182

In fairness, I just spotted this;

Putin: Russia gave details to U.S. about possible Iraq plots.

ASTANA, Kazakhstan (AP) — Russia gave the Bush administration intelligence after the September 11 attacks that suggested Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq was preparing attacks in the United States, President Vladimir Putin said Friday.

full story below http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-06-18-russia-us_x.htm

patrick66 · Joined: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 623 Location: Oklahoma

Your juvenile responses on this and other posts have led me to believe you can not be reasoned with, panzerboy, so I'm ending with this: 5% of one billion people is 50 million potential Muslim enemies. You need to deal with that reality, and quit with all the petty bull$hit the Left has to offer. Whether you think our President is wrong or right in what he and his Administration is doing, this IS one Nation. You and I are citizens of this great Nation, and if you want to keep this a great Nation, get you cranial cavity out of your rectal cavity and support our efforts to rid the planet of these scumbag bastard Islamists that want nothing more than to kill you, me, and everybody else who stands in their way.

You'd best wake up and deal with reality. People like you do nothing but divide and take away from the people that want to keep this nation intact and as one. That's all I've got to say to you. Of course, you'll get the last word here, because that's how people like you are. Ciao!

PS - panzerboy, out of all your blathering above, you DID have a valid point about border security, and I'm all with you on that. A certain thing called "posse comitatus" keeps our military from acting in a law enforcement role within our own borders. Or do you remember that from your 5th-grade history? I've been a history fanatic since age five, and I'm in my mid-forties now. Anytime...

[ 06-18-2004: Message edited by: patrick66 ]

panzerkeil302 · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2182

"A certain thing called "posse comitatus" keeps our military from acting in a law enforcement role within our own borders"

But where did I say our military had to contain the borders? Have you not heard of homeland security...did you not know we had them?

panzerkeil302 · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2182

Correct me if I misquote you;

You think we should kill every muslin.

I think we should be killing the terrorists only.

Am I summing this up correctly?

patrick66 · Joined: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 623 Location: Oklahoma

You're being corrected. I said "the terrorists"...Guess what? They happen to be Muslims!!! Did I say ANYWHERE "all Muslims"? Of course not. Of course, all of the Christian and Jewish terror organizations are included, too. Wait, there ARE none! (Sinn Fein is an possible exception!).

You've made my point about your juvenile responses. Bye bye!

BTW "muslin" is a cotton cloth.

[ 06-18-2004: Message edited by: patrick66 ]

panzerkeil302 · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2182

"5% of one billion people is 50 million potential Muslim enemies. You need to deal with that reality"

so you're back peddling…because this seems like you’re saying we need to deal with the fact that we have to kill them all.

I think you need to take a stand here, and make up your mind – do you want to kill all Muslims, or do you only want to kill terrorists?

Help the board understand you.

patrick66 · Joined: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 623 Location: Oklahoma

You'll never get it. Good bye.

kyshadetreebmw · Joined: 16 Apr 2003 Posts: 849 Location: Berea, Kentucky

We understand him.

panzerkeil302 · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2182

Patt66, to kill them all to get the bad 10% is wrong. It’s unethical, it’s morally wrong under the eyes of our lord….it is evil.

SaturdayNightBimmer · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 443

EXTREMISM in ANY religion is bad news.
America is under attack. Let's not lose sight of that. They will strike again.

"Muslim Extremism believes that it's okay to strap bombs onto children and send them to paradise and whatever else and to behead people."

"This extremism is a vile culture and if you think for a second that it's going to just remain over in the sands of God's armpit, you've got another thing coming. Muslim extremists want to come and live right where you and I live, and they think that we're all evil."

panzerkeil302 · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2182

"Muslim Extremism believes that it's okay to strap bombs onto children and send them to paradise and whatever else and to behead people."

This is a great point. Extremism is bad...but not all muslims are extremists. We can't kill every muslim.

SNB, you surprised me?!