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[pup]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tennessee Slim:
[QB]So why are we even talking about toppling the best SecDef since Al Haig?

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rumsfeld and hussein are old pals

[SaturdayNightBimmer]

Amazing there are people who still don't "get it". Our true enemy is obviously Syria, Iran, Iraq, etc. They are the ones who hate America, INCITE hate in their school books, in their Mosques, and in their media (Al Jazeera) with non-stop attempts to INCITE hatred towards America and recruit terrorists. Iraq has always been just as "involved" as any of those countries. Saddam was the worst of the worst instigators.

The real atrocities caused by Muslim fanatics: How about those American children killed in the 9/11 tragedy? How about the over 3,000 Americans killed? OWNED!







[ 05-25-2004: Message edited by: SaturdayNightBimmer ]

[panzerkeil302]

Ohhhh, I see, Iraq was to blame for 911! I thought we invaded for WOMD! All this time I though we should be hunting for Osama, and it turns out Saddam was to blame for it!

you wrote
"the real atrocities caused by Muslim fanatics"

Bingo - 12,000 dead civilians in Iraq because of an extremist groups.

So we should daisy cut an entire city? That is what you said, isn't it? Mass genocide...didn't Hitler try that on the Jews? Of course you see how silly a statement that is, no? Did you think what Hilter did was right? Can you process the connection?




Why do you think these extremist groups hate us? We trained Osama to kill...we put Saddam in power. Are you familiar with the mile of death?

911 was tragic, but do you think our boys sticking rifles up prisoners asses and ****ing little boys in prison is going to increase, or decrease the likelyhood of it happening again?

I would like to take a moment and recap your points

1) We invaded Iraq because of 911.
2) MOABs should be used on a city.
3) We should attack countries for actions of faction groups.
4) Boo-hoo, the prison ass ****ing and murders are no big deal, makes you proud to be an American.

You are correct - with points like these, I do not get it.

[SaturdayNightBimmer]

Then move to Iraq and do your part to help the Iraqi people. You do want to help them, right? Of course you don't want to see any more dead Iraqi babies, right?

This has got to be the LOGICAL answer for you, since you are so AGAINST AMERICA in Iraq. You really should be ashamed for being such a bleeding heart. It does make me sick that Americans think this way.

[ 05-25-2004: Message edited by: SaturdayNightBimmer ]

[MattB]

quote:

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Originally posted by panzerkeil302:
Ohhhh, I see, Iraq was to blame for 911! I thought we invaded for WOMD!

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there's one of the mistakes i get sick of hearing...
not you in particular, but why is everyone so focused on the whole WMD thing?
That was not the main reason for going into Iraq. Yet that's what people keep harping on.

We've given them freedom from so many things. There's running water in places where there hasn't been for over 30 years!
They don't have to go out and stab their own arm and sign their "votes" in blood publicly to show how much they "love" hussein so their families don't get tortured.
They're one step away from being a free, self-governing country with more changes for the good than I can shake a stick at and all I hear is people going, "well, what about the WMD's?"

Oh, and by the way, we've found plenty of evidence of WMD's. If we found a freaking nuke, people would still say, "well, that's not really a WMD." sheesh people.

To quote Ann Coulter, here's what we have so far...

"chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea

facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles."



If you're going to say something like, "ann coulter is one of those wacko right-wing columnists... don't bother, because i won't even listen to it. She has an exemplary accuracy record. She has to. Too many people try to nit-pick her apart and she'd never survive otherwise.


...And let's not forget our recent addition of Sarin gas. yes, people will say "that's just an old rusty shell"
...whatever... sarin gas is freakin sarin gas people.

[panzerkeil302]

You're getting emotional, and I have a feeling, that being in NY, this hits a little closer home to you...and I can understand that.

I'm not trying to incite riot..my only point is that the US has killed thousands of children in Iraq....I'm trying to say that "they" didn't just decided to behead a guy because they felt like it...If it was your baby in that picture, maybe you could be driven to do the same thing...I would.

SNB, my brother is in Iraq right now..I've been retired for about 7 years, and my dad is a retired major. I don't give a **** about the Iraqi people. I really don't. But I don't want one more Iraqi to die, and I don't want one more US soldier to die. Every time I hear another soldier has died, I sit on the edge of my seat and hold my breath. Every photo of a prisoner being tortured increases the likelyhood of that happening. Boo-hoo, though, huh?

I think the point of your thread header is that we should not care about what we do to the prisoners because of what they have done to us. But I think we should care. If we are going to tell them we are better than the old boss, we have to act like it.

[ 05-25-2004: Message edited by: panzerkeil302 ]

[panzerkeil302]

You wrote,

"This has got to be the LOGICAL answer for you, since you are so AGAINST AMERICA in Iraq. You really should be ashamed for being such a bleeding heart. It does make me sick that Americans think this way."

Does it really make you sick that I do not want to destroy every living soul in a city?

Does it really make you sick that I don't want to see babies die?

Is it really un-American to not want US soliders to die?

I think destroying a city is much more un-American. To think anyone would want to kill an entire city sickens me...it sounds like something a child would say.

[pup]

quote:

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Originally posted by panzerkeil302:
You wrote,

"Does it really make you sick that I do not want to destroy every living soul in a city?

Does it really make you sick that I don't want to see babies die?

Is it really un-American to not want US soliders to die?

I think destroying a city is much more un-American. To think anyone would want to kill an entire city sickens me...it sounds like something a child would say.

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or to take this further that he would exercise freedoms granted in this country and have a view opposing the current administration?

quote:

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To quote Ann Coulter, here's what we have so far...

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she is hardly a reliable source.

ahhh, the arguing of politics or religion. this could go on for 100000 posts and no one here would be any closer to convincing the opposing side.

[Billo]

Wasn’t the end result of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that they didn’t want to fight with us anymore? Did that NOT take the fight out of Japan? Aren’t you glad as an American that you don’t pledge allegiance to Japan? The main (and original) plan in Iraq was to show overwhelming force and we haven’t done that yet. It’s about time we did and until we do, we’re just swatting at a hornets nest. If we continue the way we’re headed, we might as well rename this place: The United States of Corinth...

Bill

[panzerkeil302]

I want to say the Japanese were a more “civilized” opponent. We’re dealing with some of the most brutal people on the planet – and Japan was acting as a unified country. I think the majority of Iraqis understand that running water and power are better than disease and darkness. But how do you “weed out” the extremists from the good guys? Indiscriminate bombing? Sending MORE troops?

I say NO WAY. Pull every American out, take the billions we’re spending on this war, and instead of funding bombs by GE, subsidize hydrogen cars from GM and triple the size of our homeland defense. We will never, ever wipe out every terrorist group…the harder we try, the more collateral damage we’ll have, and the more they will seek retribution.

The sooner we don’t need oil, the sooner the middle east returns to a worthless, sweltering sand pit.

[bbbidit]

Panzerkeil


I agree 100 percent ....

[pup]

quote:

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Originally posted by panzerkeil302:
I want to say the Japanese were a more “civilized” opponent. We’re dealing with some of the most brutal people on the planet – and Japan was acting as a unified country. I think the majority of Iraqis understand that running water and power are better than disease and darkness. But how do you “weed out” the extremists from the good guys? Indiscriminate bombing? Sending MORE troops?

I say NO WAY. Pull every American out, take the billions we’re spending on this war, and instead of funding bombs by GE, subsidize hydrogen cars from GM and triple the size of our homeland defense. We will never, ever wipe out every terrorist group…the harder we try, the more collateral damage we’ll have, and the more they will seek retribution.

The sooner we don’t need oil, the sooner the middle east returns to a worthless, sweltering sand pit.

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but now we are damned if we do, damned if we don't. we can't simply withdraw all troops without creating a massive power vacuum, potentially and probably filled by someone who would be more than happy to use the oil revenues for terrorist training, easily finding canidates amoungst those who have been injured or had family members killed or injured by the u.s.

[MattB]

quote:

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Originally posted by panzerkeil302:
I want to say the Japanese were a more “civilized” opponent. We’re dealing with some of the most brutal people on the planet – and Japan was acting as a unified country. I think the majority of Iraqis understand that running water and power are better than disease and darkness. But how do you “weed out” the extremists from the good guys? Indiscriminate bombing? Sending MORE troops?

I say NO WAY. Pull every American out, take the billions we’re spending on this war, and instead of funding bombs by GE, subsidize hydrogen cars from GM and triple the size of our homeland defense. We will never, ever wipe out every terrorist group…the harder we try, the more collateral damage we’ll have, and the more they will seek retribution.

The sooner we don’t need oil, the sooner the middle east returns to a worthless, sweltering sand pit.

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uhhh.... the Japanese were more civilized?
maybe you need to look that one up again.
1) They invented suicide attacks
2) they tried to float balloons across the ocean to firebomb our cities.
3) have you never heard or read about the japanese prison's... bridge over the river quai?


I do think the Muslim wacko's are more brutal, but maybe we just have better media coverage than we did then.

I also agree on different energy sources.
however, we need to finish our job over there and kick the crap outta these jerks.
Then, yes, i'd love to see our country never have to buy a drop of oil again.
Of course, then, they'd hate us because nobody would buy their bloody oil and they'd be starving again because they're too barbaric to find another way to live and it would certainly be those devil American's and devil Israeli's faults.

[panzerkeil302]

I agree with both of you about not pulling out now - when the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan, civil war broke out amongst dozens of sects...What little infrastructure they did have, was completely destroyed. Maybe the answer is finding the most powerful sect and supporting them. No promises the new leader will be any better or worse…

I remember reading that the afghan’s favorite torture of soviets was "pulling the shirt off" Cutting a soldiers skin around his waist, and "pulling" his skin off, like it was a shirt...they also like to **** in glass bottles, stuff it up soviets butts, then break the glass, and then let the soldier go. Sent a very strong message to the troops…The Soviet army was literally scared out of the country. Anyone see any similarities?

I guess I'm judging "civility" by degree...I'm not implying the Japanese were civilized, maybe just more civil. I could be wrong, but I haven't heard of them being as bad…


….all this political pontification on an e30 board….yup, slow day at work.

[Greenhornet84]

Couple of notes:
Matt,
Iraq is not one step from freedom. They're one step from a bloody civil war.I never believed that we were in Iraq to prommote democracy. According to Bill Crystal in the American Spectator, published in 1997, our aims in Iraq were threefold;
1. Remove Sadaam Hussan
2. Remove our troops from Saudi Arabia and place them in a large footprint in Iraq to insure that we have a large defensible position in the Middle East
3. Install a puppet government and proclain a democracy in Iraq.
WHY DIDN'T IT WORK?
The Iraquis are an educated, secular nation. They are not going to be dictaated to to by a superpower that has a history of proping up dictators whose human rights violations were overlooked by the US as long as they sold us oil at a low price.

Can we lay off the Ann Coulter,Rush, Sean, etc. quotes? I'm willing to listen to the twisted logic on this thread, but please don't interject this victeral from outside. Almost nothing Rush, Sean or Ann ever proves to be right.

What about Lt. General Sanchez? He gets shipped back to the states, dosn't get his 4th Star and they just put 8 low ranking enlisted guys and gals in jail? Does anybody believe the chain of command went from a 3 star to an E6?
Mark