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[Billo]

I keep reading this post and there are several things that are apparent. I’m not a liberal. I applaud Roadstergal’s tenacity, and I struggle with some of the same questions as the rest of the folks who have posted. We (born here, residential Americans) have all been taught from birth that there are certain things in our universe that are ‘self evident’. One is the right to live and let live. Our ‘orthodox’ Islamic brothers and sisters don’t believe that. If they claim to, they are going against the law that they are taught from birth. They don’t all believe that. There are those to whom jihad is spiritual warfare and never moves into the physical. One thing I know, at least 18 Islamic members worked, planed, associated with us and were neighbors for years while preparing to fly airplanes into our nations symbols. I know that better than 3000 people died on 9/11 for no apparent reason. I’ve discussed this with the owner of a gyro place that I frequent who is of the Islamic faith and his response is ‘desperate times call for desperate measures'. Scary.
I work on computers for a living. I have since 1976. Computers are driven by logic. It makes everything in my world all neat and nice. There are physical laws that silicon and germanium working together always, always follow. Well at least they did up until one day in October 1994. That was when it was discovered a flaw in the new Pentium 60’s and they didn’t know how to multiply and divide. All of a sudden, what made perfect sense earlier, didn’t. The reason I’m writing this is to base an analogy between illogical computers and psychosis. Psychotic murders are simply not able to make sense of their incomprehensible actions. They can murder with no more guilt or conscience than eating dinner. We all like to think that people, like computers are logic based and we can always rely on that. It just isn’t so. You can run the calculations as many times as you like and you’ll never be able to defend the actions of 9/11. Even though we played a major roll in Sadam’s rise to power in ’79, no one can deny that at some point in time WMD would be a reality. They were perusing it from the time we walked away in ’92. We are the snake and given time, the plan is to destroy us. No more, no less. They have never denied that. If Sadam had been any kind of leader and believed in what he preached, he never would have allowed himself to be captured in an ice chest hiding in someone’s basement. Once again, parts of the equation that don’t and will never make sense. He killed countless numbers with proclamations of belief yet in the end, did not believe what he taught and was a coward.
There are things out there that you just have to let go because they cannot be calculated. If you don’t believe me, calculate PI to the Nth decimal. The discussion on this post is similar. I deleted the post I put here earlier where I jokingly asked Don; ‘can’t we all just get along?’. The answer is NO. Unequivocally NO. Not as long as there are leaders and followers out there who are bent on death. I know it’s disturbing not to be able to equate some of these things to resolve but this is one that just can’t be done. How many of the men out there had to contend with a bully on the playground at school? I know I did. I did until I had enough and decided to fight back. That was when I found that the bully was hiding in an ice chest. There was no substance to the fear that I had drummed into me. It only took once to gain the respect necessary to hold my head up. I know that some of this may or may not touch your beliefs but I know a lot who feel the same and have experienced the same. No amount of ‘can’t we just get along?’ would have ever satisfied the bully. It required action. I hope this analogy is not so fundamental that you can’t see where I’m coming from. For the first time since who knows when (1975) we were the perpetrators of a preemptive strike. We did tell them that we would strike if they didn’t comply with treaties signed in ’92. So preemptive may be strong words. When I grew up and my parents told me that certain actions would cause certain reactions, they followed thru and I was punished when I disobeyed. Same principle. I don’t believe that we should be involved in the worlds ‘growing up’ but we are the best I’ve seen in the world and I for one am proud to be an American and support the president’s decision today the same as I proclaimed to a year ago. Integrity is acting the same way, all the time, even when no one is looking.

Bill

[jamminjames]

Bill,

As usual, you are able to take my thoughts and translate them into the words I'd like to say. I too work with computers - industrial PLCs and am very familiar with the logic stand point. But just as every programmer writes code his own way and be completely different than the next guy's code - as long as the end result, like machine operation, is the same - it really doesn't matter how we got there. Sometimes the code may be a memory hog, overly specific, or run ultra-efficient - like our varying population. If we keep together enough to see our nation through - the end result - then we'll become that much of a stronger and unified people.

I do not agree with some of the opinions voiced and would enjoy a good debate over them. But in the end we are all in this together and I would gladly give my life defending every American's right and freedom to voice their opinions without fear of reprocussions. And I think almost all other Americans would do the same - in the end...

Bill, et all: I salute you!

James

[ 03-22-2004: Message edited by: JamminJames ]

[toolman7672]

Billo did you ever think of running for office.
Props to donaldan and xr5 resurection.

Roadstergal....I too admire your tenacity. If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything. I don't agree with your point of view, but I would die defending your right to say it.

[markf]

XR5 Resurrection...

In my opinion... being an american has nothing to do with where you were born.

Being an american is a way of thinking..
Very happy to have you with us..

Historically... the Spanish have always been ass-kickers.. so Im disapointed to lose their help.

and, hey..! thanx for serving.
I know it can be a bitch. Much appreciated.

[markf]

Hey Roadstergal...

I was laughing at that 'Bring it on' Video.
He talks so fast and sharp, I almost mistook him for intelligent.

What the hell is he doing out there, anyway..?

Did his VW bus breakdown..?
Or did he not panhandle enough gas money in bakersfield..?

Maybe we could have a bureaucracy which oversee's a large tax supported program that provides free petroleum subsidies to oxy-morons trying to get to the Burning Man spectacle, but have only enough cash for some peyote, and a movie camera.

LOL..!!
...jus hackin on you. sorry.

best wishes always..
sincerely.

[SaturdayNightBimmer]

Great thread guys. Great opinions expressed, although there are certain "tenacious ideas" that make me afraid.




[ 03-26-2004: Message edited by: SaturdayNightBimmer ]

[Greenhornet84]

Kerry and his bunch wish us to share the world's ills and make us another Third World, UN-dependent nation, rather than help the world's nations escape despair and become free and prosperous.


I don't remenber him saying that.
Bombast is always over the top
Mark

[SaturdayNightBimmer]

The current religious right scares me as of late, but I think Kerry is the worse of two evils. Still deciding...

[graha13836]

I find, as I read all this, My Republican, and my Redneck having to ask such questions as why the hell wouldn't we do something to eliminate some group that has caused much pain and suffering not only to us but other parts of the world. The US has almost always been the "big brother" of the world. I know when I was a kid, and I got into some mess where someone was pickin on me, my big brother took care of it, made sure it was no longer an issue. That has, right or wrong, become our job. At least this time, the current administration is commited to getting to the root of the problem (my opinion) and eliminating it unlike previous administrations where we have gone to do something, done it half assed and then pulled out. That would be like my brother going in, smashing someone in the face and then walking away just in time for them to really get pissed and beat the hell out of me..

I voted for bush, and am not sure if he is worth reelecting but I must concur that he is the lesser of two evils.

As far as the religious right goes, it is becoming the religious wrong.

We need spellcheck

[markf]

Agreed...
What I dont like about leftist administrations, is that they always deliver 'Measured Responses' to incidents.
this amounts to 'tit-for-tat'.
After 3 or 4 incidents.. we need to chuck 'Measured responses' out the window, and move to shock therapy. Otherwise.. things will just continue as they have for some time.
If one school yard chump can intimidate the big brother.. they're gonna start lining up.
We cant allow this.

On another note.. A friend had an interesting point that other day. He pointed out, that Abraham Lincoln barely won re-election with only 55% of the vote. Clearly the nation was divided, and almost half the nation believed he was going too far, or not far enough.. either way, they felt he was incompetent.
Much of what he did, did not seem to make sense at the time, or seemed desperate.. but today we see him as somewhat of a political geneous, and one of the all time greatest presidents..
Its possible that far in the future, when people look back on the bush administration, History may show that he did, in fact' make all the right moves.. knowing then, what we do not know as of yet.

...and lets not forget Theodore Roosevelt.
He was despised, and was not re-elected. But all that he did, still stands today.

Anti Monopoly laws, national parks, panama canal, the creation of our Pacific Fleet.. and on, and on...
He was definitely one of our greatest presidents. (and my personal favorite)

Vote 'BULLMOOSE' party..! Yea!

[ 04-02-2004: Message edited by: markf ]

[kyshadetreebmw]

I am always amazed when I see folks really believing simplistic realities and ignoring so many (to me) obvious complicit realities. There are probably a good dozen other situations in the world that could use some good old American boots in the ass. But we don't go there because there is no money in it. There are countries in Africa that are hacking each other to pieces and we barely report it, much less interfere in a significant way. Why? Well what do a bunch of rich white guys want with a country full of blacks with AIDS. They are going to let them hack each other to death and die off if possible and it will later be much easier to take over that area when we need whatever natural resource has become critical to our continued supremacy through wealth and power.
Our rich guys (not just white anymore, look at Condoleeza. Not a surprize that she is on the team. Jeez, she has an oiltanker named after her.) are high-fiving each other right now because they aced Iraq and the capital that France, Russia and other countries had invested there. Yes, there is a noble element in here somewhere and it sure makes good cover. But, good grief, a handful of very rich people now and always have run operations of the entire world. And they blow whatever smoke serves their purpose right up our holes.

Left, right or center, most of us are dancing on lines that have been fed to us. I sure as hell don't have the answers and sure don't feel qualified to call the shots. But it sure is funny how the hard right starts calling names when someone challenges their view. Liberal biased media!!! You gotta be kidding me. I can't turn anywhere these days without hearing a bunch of pompous mudslinging rightwingers saying crap that can be debunked in five minutes, but it doesn't matter, because the nasty seeds have been planted in people that really don''t have the IQ to figure it out or care. They are busy just getting by. Then the far leftwing are so convinced that the right are pure evil that they can't even dare to consider the workings of capitalistic effort or the need to exterminate the vermin that do exist in the world and that should be wiped out without compunction.

I guess I would like to see more people that are not so ready to jump on the bandwagon. But then I am over in the shadows while the parade goes down the street. You are all good people. Keep doing your daily best. This stuff depresses me. I am going to go pull a valve head. Love, Ron

[markf]

well Ron.. I believe you have a handle on it all. Whats great about America is, each of us are free to choose the lies which suit us best.

Best wishes

[kyshadetreebmw]

Yep. I was thinking about this more today.
Our elected cheerleaders should use this old standby."Lean to the left! Lean to the right!
Stand Up! Sit Down! Fight, Fight, Fight!"

[kyshadetreebmw]

Check the news today? Sounds like the Spanish are trying to kick butt at home and they also were in the thick of it in Iraq. There is always hope. Everyone be on the lookout!

[kyshadetreebmw]

Hey Markf, Thanks for jousting me down gently. Sorry about the junkyard dog outburst. But I was primed by a bunch of stuff that I am dealing with in my work and I have to keep quiet here. I'm also blaming the antidepressants but when I hear the name calling towards opponents even when it is in the spirit of jousting and folks are saying "Nuke the French" it just sets me off. That stuff is just early stages or thinly disguised bigotry and ethnic hatred that we are bragging about trying to intervene to prevent. That hypocritical swagger is probably why so much of the world wants to blow us away. So, If we really do want to make the world better for our children, we better put some integrity behind our actions. We can't have it both ways. We must exude some real caring humanity. If you call them "towelheads", the guys may smile at you at the corner grocery, but the towelheads will have an understandable desire to put a bomb in your kids soccer arena. We swaggered our moneymaking way across the globe in the afterglow of our effort in WWII and built up this backlash that we are now dealing with. If there is any hope for this place, we better get real highminded and mean it. Post Lincoln's "Gettysburg Address" in your workplace. Ciao! Ron