Unofficialbmw.com

[Greenhornet84]

Can't seem the get a response, so try this: The middle class, defined as thos who make $50,000 to $500,000 a year (taxable salery) pay about 15.7%in Taxes The top .04% (about 170,000 people) earn better than $175 million aand have a tax rate of 22%. These are the guys who just got the big Tax break.
Makes sense , right

Mark

[board_nerd]

{yawn}

[k9fxr]

This is how I describe it to my kids:
Taxes should be fair,
even at a flat rate, the more you make the more you pay, to add incremental rates makes the additional amt you make taxed even more...this has been our system.
Any tax reductions for the higher incremental brackets are just bringing things back to a more just system.
Sure it seems better to tax the rich guys more, just like we all like to tax cigarettes, booze and luxury autos (well maybe not that)users.
It's just not equitable,and to charge more to people being more successful is punative.

[ 01-12-2004: Message edited by: k9fxr ]

[JRS]

Ok.. my $0.02 on this subject...

Taxes are pretty to some of us (I being one). But after visiting different countries (England, Canada, Philippines, and Germany)and asking our relatives about their taxes and "cost of living", I see benefits. I pay as I go. Our family incomce increases and taxes increase as well. There are tax breaks and loopholes. You just have to be wise and use them appropriately. For example, my work just had United Way raffle for 1-year reserved parking spaces. Now, mind you, the parking spaces are FREE but this is for a RESREVED "no-other-car-will-ding-your-car" spot. I paid $255 for mine and the top bidder paid $1,850 for hers. Some people were laughing at us and others were just mystified. The bottomline is simple: I got a spot (an intangible item that I do NOT own) and I also got a $255 tax write-off for 2003. To go on, I also gave my local church a used, working computer (complete w/monitor, etc). That gives me another write-off. The lesson I am learning is: As you progress in the tax-rate area, learn to find legal loopholes and write-offs. Back when I was 21,I never imagined having to open IRAs every year.

The old adage of "The rich get richer" is 100% true. As an example, if you're the ultra-conservative type, make $15K-$50K/year, lives paycheck-to-paycheck or doesn't believe in investing in some high-yield market then expect taxes to be a 'thorn'. The ultra-rich move this economy. They invest millions in the market and create new corporations with new job opportunities. They get a big tax rate but also get a BIGGER heap of cash.

I don't like the current tax situation or the way the government is handing the deficit or the relations with certain countries. But none of that is in my direct control.

I am, however, the "King of my domain" and it's best to focus on THAT before you focus on a bigger picture. If you feel that you can make a difference, then the government does allow you to run for some political office. I, for one, have started making an impact in my local community by being a part of a Chamber. It's only local but it's a start. Look in the mirror. If you're one that constantly voices out concerns but doesn't do anything to make a difference, then you are (no offense intended) a Hamster - and someone has your wheel.

For those that constantly monitor your Credit Rating, I applaud you for being proactive. Anyone take advantage of the GM/Ford zero percent interest on their vehicls ? Whoa! Only those that 'qualify' can get that rate. And qualification is based on your current Credit Score. I think the score was 675 or better. Another instance of 'the rich get richer' and 'moving the economy'. People with Credit Scores above 650 tend to be less risky. And how does one increase their Credit Scores ?

By borrowing money and paying it back (with interest) on-time.
By increasing their salary and maintaining an excellent debt-to-cash ratio.
By investing in 401Ks, Roth IRAs, IRAs, the stock market, etc.
By learning to live with being: "Cash poor, debt-free, and Asset rich".

You could have a cool $1M in the bank but creditors will still see you as a risk because it's liquidable equity. In short, it can disappear tomorrow. Put that cash in an interest bearing, high-yield account and your rating goes up... but you will get taxed.

Taxes, taxes, taxes... you've got me stirred up. But I can take two steps back and realize that I have learned to manage and minimize my taxes.

Wanna be 'ultra-rich' ? Do what they do but in a smaller scale. But just don't over-do it.

And I leave with this final comment which we have all heard in the past:

"Work smarter not harder..."

JRS

[k1hb]

How Taxes Work . . . somewhat long, FBuckley style: profoundly hilarious.

This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on -- it does make you think!!

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men ? the poorest ? would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man ? the richest ? would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement ? until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six ? the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!

[JRS]

K1hb,

Bravo! Well put! Kudos from my other family members who read the post!

I could add-on plenty but I'll leave it alone with only one comment: In the ten people, the various classes are all represented. The poorest get government "assistance", the middle-class work hard to make ends meet and keep the economy flowing, and the rich get hit hard but usually 'own' the restaurant.

Remember that tax-break-check we all got in 2003 ? It was meant to help the US people. Most ended up putting the money in the bank. But I spent all of mine. To spur the economy one must spend money.

Great job, K1hb!

JRS

[Greenhornet84]

I started this? That was the most convoluted thing I've ever read. Let's start with basics. The stock market dosn't run the economy. Comsumers do. If the middle class buys durable goods American people are employed and the cycle begins. Henry Ford paid his people $1 more a day (moving them from $4 to $5) so they could afford to buy a car. Ford wasn't a Liberal he was a Capitalist. He also ended up with all the best toolmakers in Detroit.
I enjoyed that dance about the guys in the restaurant. But the poor can't get into the restaurant. And the rich don't eat with the middle class. Makes as much sense as Joe Liberman on the floor of the House 3 years ago comparing That tax break. the one about the rich guy buying a Lexus and the middle class guy buy a muffler.
The point is: you got a guy makinh $175M and you give him a $200,000 tax refund and that's going to save the economy? This guy buys any car he wants, when he needs it. His refund is just going into the bank.
Mark

[JRS]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Greenhornet84:
..(snip).. Let's start with basics. The stock market dosn't run the economy. Comsumers do. If the middle class buys durable goods American people are employed and the cycle begins. ..(snip)..

---

You are correct, the consumers run the economy and the economy is tied to the market. Quarterly earnings are what companies post if someone (corporate or individual) buys a product from a company. And that company is a publicly held entity... which is listed on the Stock Market.
If that company has lack-luster sales, then they try everything in their power to sell, sell, sell their goods. If they fail, then they layoff their workers (the consumer)... who (as originally stated) "have the power to drive the economy".
Henry Ford was innovative and basically started a "stock option"-type movement by giving an extra $1 to his workers. It kept them working and producing goods. And it also gave them a chance to buy those goods. He essentially paid them money that would come back to the company.
I beg to differ: With the help of 'credit', the poor do eat at the restaurant, but not often. And the rich do eat with the middle-class, but not often.
What upsets me the most is when I lived in Chicago and saw welfare folks lining up to hit the casino boats in Joliet, IL. That was a clear sign of the poor getting poorer.. and it was legal.


JRS

[k1hb]

JRS: That wasnt me! I take no credit for plagiarism, please!
Thats WFBuckley scribbling.

But nevertheless wonderful to mull over.

Fred

[k1hb]

Where do u guys stash ur money?

I'm too busy working for a non-profit, so I put some of my 403b in a RUSSEL2000 indexed (very cheap) fund...and i DONT EVER LOOK BACK!
Ck it out on cnnfn.com. it skyrockets more than the nasdaq these days. And has room to go.

Fred

[JRS]

quote:

---

Originally posted by k1hb:
Where do u guys stash ur money?
...(snip)...

---

Various areas;

1. In a 1-yr CD that eventually pays off my yearly taxes... and it just matured - ready to payoff the 2003 Taxes.

2. In a very-liquidable Money Market account. You never know when you need serious money - fast.

3. In a Vanguard 401(k) account with a 70/30 agressive/conservative mix.

4. In a Fidelity account with a 50/50 mix.

5. In cash and IRA accounts with a major online brokerage firm.

6. Buying company stock at a very discounted rate. Today the stock closed just above $90 and I buy it for $70/share.

7. Did I miss anything ?

JRS

[Billo]

In a Mason Jar in the back yard...

Bill

[Greenhornet84]

JRS,
I think you already have some people thinking about thir future (retirement) which is great. The number of people who arn't sure who to vote for in the first week in November is probabaly the same number of people who wouldn't know what an investment is, are the same people for whom retirement is going to be a disaster. Theywill be workin (part time) next to thier grandchildren at the local 7/11 A 10.4 Trillion (over 10 years) tax break for people making $175M a year is unconconible.
This is just W saying "Give me $5K for a chicken dinner and I'll give you $200K in tax breaks. And the defecit? F... it! The children on thr middle class will pay for the Tax cut
Mark