Unofficialbmw.com

[85-325e]

Hi everyone...

You have all been so helpful to me in the various projects I've done to my 325e over the past two years, but I really need advice on this one. When I did a lot of the major work in 2002, I bought the timing belt, the tensioner and the water pump. I really planned to do them then, but after all the work I did on the car, I was just too spent to try it. The last time it was done was in 1997 or 1998 by BMW. I will probably have to go on a long distance trip fairly soon with the car, and I'm concerned about the pump and the belt, especially after all I've heard up here about the result if it breaks.

However, I'm VERY nervous about starting this job. While I've done some pretty difficult things on the car, this is one where if you f**k up, the car's almost worthless. So... I need both advice and a "go get 'em!"

I've ready Bentley many times, and the project still worries me. I've gone back over all the posts about this (there seem to be less than I expected up here), and my knees are still clacking! I'm sure I'll need a tool or two I don't have... that 32mm wrench sounds like a pain in the butt... I've never removed the hood or the radiator. I AM getting the car painted, hopefully next week, and would like to do this project before they spray the car. I'll be in the garage anyway removing as much of the trim around the car as possible before I bring it in.

What's a beemer boy to do? PLEASE HELP!!!!!

Thanks in advance,

Enis

[BD325ic]

You can do it, just relax and take your time.

If the belts that old you need to change it regardless of whether you're taking a trip or not.

I remember the 1st time I did an E30 timing belt, I was a little nervous also. Once you start getting the parts off, the Bentley manual and the pictures will make more sense. I can't think of any specific advice other than to just follow the manual.

I didn't remove the hood when I did the job but it would make it easier getting access to the front of the engine.

Good luck with your car.

[dale]

First of all, just relax about it. The only major thing that can go wrong is getting the belt off by a tooth, and you can double, triple, and quadruple check that to your hearts content before putting the covers back on.

The main thing to be careful of is to not turn the cam sprocket or the engine while the belt is off the motor. Look at where the alignment marks are on the cam sprocket and the crankshaft before you take the belt off, so you can get it back to that point if you do bump it somehow.
Get a small bottle of yellow or red paint and use it to mark the position of the gears _before_ removing the belt.

upper:


http://www.skumwerks.net/repairs_maint/images/uptimemark1.gif

lower


http://www.skumwerks.net/repairs_maint/images/lotimemark2.gif


No need to remove the hood or the radiator.

I use a 1/4" drive, 8mm on a universal with ratchet to take the distributer cap off.

You have to buy or borrow that 32mm, as almost no crescent wrench will fit in there.
Remember, it's reverse thread!

If you have a camera, take pictures as you go so you can refer back to them while you are putting it back together.
If you don't have a camera, buy one of those little $10 disposable ones with a flash.
http://www.skumwerks.net/repairs_maint/tbelt.htm

Dale

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited by: dale ]

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited by: dale ]

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited by: dale ]

[JRS]

.. and while you're at it, replace all of the "visible" belts that you have to remove during the t-belt replacement process and why not spend and extra $78 from BMP and replace all of the coolant hoses - while they're also off.

An extra $100-$120 worth of parts but you won't have to change them again in the near future.

My t-belt replacement cost me $300+ in parts. But I replaced a lot and am happy about doing so. I have an "assurance" that nothing major has to be done to my E30 for another 45K miles (I had a friend help me change it 15K miles ago).

I was also scared but I learned a lot in the process and lately I've had a 'lets get it done' attitude with regards to replacement parts for the E30.

Good luck!

JRS

[85-325e]

To Dale, Bruce and JRS...

Firstly, I want to thank all 3 of you for the "go get ems" and confidence building! I'm still apprehensive but I feel better about it all thanks to you guys. In some respects, I'm actually getting excited to do it. On Monday, the alignment gets done and the tires will be balanced and rotated. I think while I'm doing the work in the garage on the pump and belt, I'll remove the wheels and REALLY clean them... They're the stock alloys that came with the car, but up here, they use magnesium cloride on the roads, and the wheels really look awful after a winter season... plus, that crap leaves a gummy residue and I want to get that all off before the wheels get balanced... Plus, they're a LOT easier to clean off the car than on, at least for me. And you can do the insides as well. I'm also going to have to do some minor bodywork on a few small rust spots around the door locks, and sand down a LOT of the hood. Over the past 9 years, I've gotten HUNDREDS of stone dings cause they cover the roads with cinder and gravel during the winter months up here... I want to get most of that sanded down before I bring it to Maaco on Monday afternoon... so removing the hood has lots of advantages anyway. It'll be easier to sand that curve and windshield area edge with the hood off the car.

BUT, I've still got couple of quick questons...

1. I've read up here that that 32mm wrench can be gotten at bike shops (I don't have the time to get one sent here now). Dale, you said that no crescent wrench will fit in there. Does that include when the radiator and hood are off? I can get a Crescent wrench that opens to 41mm at Home Depot for $11.95! If even after removing the radiator and hood (fyi, my air conditioning is shot and that a/c "radiator" in front of the regular radiator sprung a leak, so I can't do any more damage to it than has already been done) a crescent wrench won't fit in there, do you know what that wrench is used for at bike shops so I know what to ask them for?

2. I'm 50 years old. Other than a 1979 Chevy van with 284K that I recently had for a year and a 88 Bronco II that I got for a song with 87K, in perfect shape a year and a half ago, I've only had 3 cars in my life. 1971 I bought an Austin America BRAND NEW for $1,900 including tax, license and dealer prep... I had that car till 1972, when I sold it, and bought a 1973 maroon 2002 (round tail lights), $4,000 BRAND NEW including dealer prep and licensing (in 1973, people thought I was crazy spending THAT kind on money on a car, especially one few people knew about!... I didn't have the money cause I was 19, but the 3.0 CS, BRAND NEW, was only $7K and the "Bavaria" was $5.5K!). I used that 2002 for 160K, then bought the 325e! So, MOST of my driving life has been in BMWs, but only 2 of them! Don't forget that the 1600/2002 series saved BMW from bankruptcy. I love the 325e, although it's been sickly on and off for the past two years, but it's given me great service along the way. In all these years, I've never easily found the TDC markers in either car (although I wasn't very proficient with mechanics when I had the 2002), and I have this great fear that I'll not get it correct. I assume that once you're up close and personal with those pulleys, it should all be fairly clear. Correct?

3. Anything that I could do based on regular stupidity to totally screw this up?

4. As long as I mark everything well BEFORE taking off the old belt, this shouldn't be too tough?

5. Any special tricks or things to look out for with the belt tensioner?

FWIW, I really appreciate all the help I've gotten from this board on all these projects, and hope that in some way I've helped others too. But I'm a perpetual newbie with this stuff, as each project I undertake is something I've never done or seen before.

In college, I worked in the theatre a bit. And the rule there was that each person studying for any special aspect of the theatre had to do every job, just for the experience and training, and so that you'd always have respect for what others in the play had to do, whether they were on-stage or not. There was one actor... very nice but very gay, who got assigned to work the lights. He turned to the professor and said "Lights? I thought God ran the lights!" Doesn't God run the timing belt too???

There's not much left in this car that would need to be replaced anymore! The differential whines a bit but it's not that bad and it's not saying "I want to go to Miami!" The drive train is pretty good, the engine seems strong. There's a HUGE difference driving that puppy up here. My BASE elevation at home is 8,500' and the passes around here are all between 10K and 12K feet. When I took the car down to Vegas for a week, it felt like a BULLET. And that's STILL at 2K feet. When I get it back to New York, especially after it's painted and all this stuff has been done to it, it'll feel like an ICBM.. I'm really looking forward to that! It'll be like putting an oxygen mask on the front of the car. FYI, Premium up here has hit $2.40/gallon (91 octane) and the 85 is at $2.11/gal!

Thanks again to everyone up here on UBB that's helped me out over the years... I literally couldn't have done any of it without you guys!

Like Jimmy Cagney, the Yankee Doodle said... "My mother thanks you, my Father thanks you, my 325e thanks you, and I thank you!"

Cheers,

Enis

[85-325e]

JRS... I did all the belts 20 months ago... at least the visible ones. I also replaced every hose, except one in the engine compartment. Even did the steering hoses, the pan gasket (boy was THAT a pain-in-the-ass), new wires, new dist cap, new rotor. That's when I had ordered the pump, gasket, belt and tensioner... But I spent 4 weeks on the car, doing the work, then having the clutch bearing break up, then to remove the exhaust, shields, drive shaft, tranny, do the flywheel & sensors, add a new clutch and clutch release bearing, put it all back together and get the car working again, all while finding that I needed more and more parts, and having to wait for them to arrive from shipment... When it came to the timing belt and pump, I just couldn't deal... I simply was mechanically fried!

This time, the brake/rotor/control arm thing wasn't so bad.. certainly, it was easier than I expected, probably because of everyone's input... So I think that if I replace these 4 elements now, I should be good for a while. At least I HOPE so!

More FYI... I'm on the 4th steering rack in the car.The second to last time I had it done, I bought a refurbished one with a lifetime guarantee, and it went about 9 months later... Luckily, that will always be done at the shop for nothig from now on, and I'm SURE it will go again sometime!

Thanks again...

Enis

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited by: 85-325e ]

[Quincy56]

I've now done two timing belts on our 4 door 325i. The first time I had the luxury of having another car for a week to use, so I took my time. I'm also older and my back doesn't like all that leaning over the car. Removing the hood and radiator made things a lot easier to reach. I can't imagine trying to lean over the side for that long.

There are plenty of other articles out there on how to change the belt. I had at least 2 others along with the Bently.

One thing that at least one of them mentioned was taking off the hub behind the crankshaft pully. I only had to remove the pully to get the belt out. There was a small grove around it where I could pull it out.

Timing Belt Replacement

Another Timing Belt Replacement

Good luck.

[k1hb]

you can do it!
i like to take the hood off, put the car on good stands, have a strong lamp, dont mess with the coolant on the floor, take time.

so its good to have a second pair of hands to carry the hood off and to hold the cam when torquing off the pulley...and to turn the engine to the markers.

get good sockets for the pulley, hammer them in tight before wrenching them off, i stripped one ... ouch!

fred

[85-325e]

Fred... What car do you have. I keep reading about the two part hub with 430lb torque... I think that's what worries me the most. If my car has that, I don't think I'd be able to do the job!

Enis

[jcrim]

You probs dont have the dreaded 'two part hub' that bentley talks about. I did my T-belt on my '84 eta, I got down to it and thought for sure I had the two piece. Turns out the outer piece just pulls off with a couple screwdrivers behind it. I didnt have much trouble with the fan. I didnt have a 32mm spanner, but luckily my dad had a big 1-1/16 (maybe 1-1/8, I dont remember) wrench that fit perfectly. Its not very tight and just needs a little nudge before it turns by hand. I think just a pair of big channel-locks would work fine. On the tensioner, tighten it up with it all the way back. Put the belt over the other sprockets first, tensioner last, loosen up the bolt holding the tensioner back and watch it spring into action.

Removing the radiator frees up a lot of space, and takes relatively little time. I didnt take off the hood. It was my first time replacing T-belt and water pump, took me about 5 hours... Next time it'll take 2. The job seems overhelming at first, but once you get in there, it's a cakewalk.

[bgwavdav]

About 4 months ago, I was in the same spot you're in. My water pump was going out, so I took it in to the local independent shop, where they wanted to charge me $1069.00!!! They said the radiator was blocked, the thermostat was failing, and the fan clutch was shot. Not to mention the water pump, which was the original problem. Incidentally, the timing belt had been changed just before I bought the car, so I didn't need to worry about that. Well, I figured that since I didn't have $1069.00 to toss, I'd try and do some research to see if I could tackle it myself. I'm not an "experienced" mechanic, and most of my car repair projects have been on older American cars (nice and easy!). When I realized just what this project entailed, I became more than a little concerned that I was not capable of such a task. But, I found this incredible discussion board (www.unofficialbmw.com) where I was able to search for all sorts of previously submitted advice, comments, and suggestions, on these issues, as well as ask a few questions of my own. I also ordered my Bentley from this site on the advice of so many board members.

The more I read the posts, the more confident I became. I bought a fairly small (but nice) set of metric tools, and one Saturday morning, I started in. The Bentley was great, but there’s quit a bit it doesn’t go in to detail on. For the experienced mechanic, that’s OK, but for an intermediate, it’s down right scary. Had it not been for the folks on this board, I would have been in a world of trouble.

The project took a few days, but I wasn’t working all day – every day, either. I did have my teenage son there, as an extra pair of hands when I needed ‘em.

Here are a few suggestions…
* Do some searches on this board – there’s tons of great archived info on this procedure.
* Keep all your parts organized as you remove them, and TAKE PICTURES AS YOU GO! (I got this one from the board, and it saved my butt!!!)
* Removing the hood was a must – especially for us “older” guys.
* I tied a long piece of string to one end of the windshield-washer hose, as I pulled it from the inside of the hood, so I could easily thread it back through when the time came. It worked like a charm!
* When you drain the radiator (assuming you’re pulling it out as well) and pull the hoses out, be prepared for a mess! It doesn’t drain nice. I used my son’s old large plastic sled as a container. Fortunately, it caught most of the fluid.
* I used large channel-lock pliers (carefully), and a sturdy piece of wood positioned between the fan and the engine as a way to keep the unit from turning as I loosened 32mm nut from the fan.
* Don’t over tighten nuts and bolts! I broke the one that fastens the timing belt cover to the top of the head. It’s still in there, and I have no idea how to get it out!
* If you run in to a roadblock, send another post to this board – these guys are awesome and incredibly knowledgeable (and quick to reply most of the time)!

Be patient, and good luck!

--Steve

PS As it turned out, the fan clutch was fine, and the radiator was not blocked (as the shop had lead me to believe). I spent about $300, instead of the original quote of $1069, and the car runs great!

[85-325e]

Thanks Danny... I just came back from NAPA and they have a 32mm Combo wrench but it's $49.00, and I simply don't want to spend it. I also have a set of fan wrenches for my Bronco II, but of COURSE, they're the wrong size. I don't have time to order it from BavAuto, and what they're selling is a 36/32 spanner wrench anyway. I can get a regular crescent wrench that expands to 40mm at Home Depot for $12! If, once the radiator is out, I have enought room with that crescent wrench, that's the way I'll go cause I can use that wrench for tons of stuff other than the 325e moneypit!

Enis

[haber]

Channel Locks have always been good to get my fan clutch off. Just do that first before removing any belts.

I'm about 99.9% sure your 85 doesn't need the crank hub removed, just the pulley.

If you have an 85 it should have a new timing gear bolt. If its not the internal torx but the old hex head you should replace it. Your old t-belt is perfect for holding the pulley while torquing down.

It's not that bad IMO with the hood on and radiator in. And once the new belt is installed you should rotate it several times(ratchet on crank hub bolt) to pre-tension it then reset the tensioner. If you've done that and the marks still line up then you can be certain the belt is on right and no worries when you hit the ignition.

Good luck...

[Quincy56]

I think I got my 32mm wrench at Sears for a lot less.

[85-325e]

Hi Steve...

Actually, right now, I don't think anything's wrong. This is more preventative maintenance than anything else. I have a digital camera and ALWAYS take shots of what I'm doing, so that even if I don't do it right, someone can look a tthe pics and say "Hey stupid... that's your problem!"

There's no question that this board is amazing, and the help up here invaluable. I joined the board in June of 2002... since then with the help of everyone up here and of course, my incredibly worn copy of Bentley, I've:

* Changed all the hoses in the engine compartment.
* Replaced the distributor cap, rotor and wires.
* Changed the oil pan gasket (something I don't want to do again for a LONG, LONG time!).
* Removed the exhaust, drive train, transmission, clutch & flywheel.
* Replaced the rear engine seal, the transmission seals, the clutch.
* Replaced the steering hoses from the reservoir down.
* Replaced the clutch, the clutch release bearing, the flywheel and the timing sensors on the bellhousing.
* Replaced the front rotors, front pads and both control arms.
* Replaced the rear rotors and pads.
* I've removed the sunroof, which had rusted at the hinges, and completely rebuilt it, then reinstalled it.

I think there's a bunch of other stuff too, but it's all I can remember right off the top of my head... And STILL, this job makes me nervous!!!

Thanks for the tips... They'll surely help when I tackle this job this weekend...

Enis