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Bimmerboy1989
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 476 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: M50 Conversion |
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I was wondering how hard a M50 conversion would be. My M20 is tired and worn out, it's ridiculous how much it costs to rebuild one. Also my transmission won't be touched by and shops. Being that I am missing a gear it is worth it for me to get a new style transmission. Anyone have any links to free sites about this conversion and any links to write ups on how to do it. I plan on getting a donor car and doing the swap. Any help would b greatly appreciated, Thanks James. |
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dale
Joined: 22 Aug 1999 Posts: 3087 Location: Seattle, WA USA
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Bimmerboy1989
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 476 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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I certainly have a decent shop, and it's my project car so it doesn't matter about time. The only problem will be finding a donor car with decently low mileage and at a decent price. |
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wazzu70
Joined: 26 Jul 2005 Posts: 838 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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http://www.e3024v.com/ this site is great too.
If my M20 dies again, there is no way Im sticking a 12v motor back in. Dropping in an M50/2 motor is totally the way to go as its just a much better built motor. People will say you dont gain that much power advantage, but you get a significant amount right off the bat and you have a more reliable engine to boot. Also the 24v engines respond very well to modifications.
This swap is easier now due to a lot of parts available off the shelf. Places like http://www.akgmotorsport.com/e30products.html have a lot of the swap parts ready to go right off the shelf for a plug and play experience. You can also get custom software to disable the EWS and all that jazz making the engine managmenent quite simple.
Do yourself a favor and get the M52 and the later e36 transmission. The added torque of the M52 is nice and the later model transmissions are higher quality. Dont skimp and get a crappy Getrag 260 like your e30 has. Also, while the motor is out you might want to look at swapping some S52 or schrick cams into the motor. They have software for that too and it returns good results.... _________________ -Nick
1984 BMW 325e
1991 BMW 325i
1976 Honda CB400F Super Sport
"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" |
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cmcon98
Joined: 13 Nov 2002 Posts: 1844 Location: Boston
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: |
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A little more info........I've studied a lot of completed and in-process M50 swaps over the past couple of years, as I'm cinsidering it, too.
The '92 non-vanos M50 has hotter cams (which is why it has a slightly lumpy idle) than the vanos versions, with better high-RPM performance, but less torque. Torque is less of an issue in the light E30 than it is in the heavier E36.
The Getrag 260 is fine for a stock M50. For anything more powerful, I'd use the ZF 5-speed from an M52 or S50/2 car. The Getrag 5-speeds from the early E36 cars are no better than the 260.
You need an oilpan from 24-valve E34. You need 6-cylinder E36 motor mount brackets.
A stock E34 front exhaust section will fit with some modification. Any exhaust short of custom will be very close to or touch the control arm bushing bracket on the pass. side.
Some of the tuner shops sell an electrical connector purporting to plug the 24-valve engine's harness right into the E30 body harness. They want $400.00 for this, which is absurd. Get a schematic for each harness and you can do the same thing yourself for about $20 in wire and solder.
The M/S50/2 A/C compressor will work with an R134a converted E30 a/c system, but custom lines have to be made. Any a/c shop can do this. _________________ Cirrusblau '88 325iC 5-speed
Cosmosschwartz '99 M3 'vert 5-speed |
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wazzu70
Joined: 26 Jul 2005 Posts: 838 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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The issue with the 260 is that in the first place, apparently not all the bell housing to block bolts can go in. Also even if they could, the e36 transmissions have a access in teh bottom of the bellhousing so that you can remove the rear pan bolts. The 260 does not have this, which means removing the pan is a royal pain without removing the transmission. I don't want to remove the transmission to change a pan gasket or inspect the pan.
Keep in mind that a lot of the 24v swap info is out there from people who couldnt do a job right if their life depended on it. A lot of things people say are "fine" and "will work" I guess are fine to some people who are incredibly ghetto and cheap. Dont trust everything you read out there.... _________________ -Nick
1984 BMW 325e
1991 BMW 325i
1976 Honda CB400F Super Sport
"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" |
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cmcon98
Joined: 13 Nov 2002 Posts: 1844 Location: Boston
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Well, the 260-equipped swaps I've looked at up close were very cleanly done, and the owners didn't say anything about bolt holes lining up, although I didn't crawl under the cars and check. So this may or may not be true.
As for the oil pan issue ... c'mon. How often do you remove the oil pan from a street car to "inspect" it? Dunno about you, but in my 29 years of driving, I've had at least 40 different street cars at various times, and I've removed the oil pans from exactly two with the engine in place. So unless you're doing something to make it necessary to remove your oil pan often, I don't think it's a big issue.
The people I've spoken to who have actually done the swap with the 260, rather than talked about it, have told me that they stayed with the E30 tranny because, first and foremost, they had it on hand, the stock E30 hydraulics, shift tower and linkage can be used, and the stock E30 driveshaft can be used. Obviously, for a street car with an S50/2 or a racecar, you'd want to use the stronger, later ZF transmission. _________________ Cirrusblau '88 325iC 5-speed
Cosmosschwartz '99 M3 'vert 5-speed |
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85-325e
Joined: 30 Jun 2002 Posts: 4712 Location: Southampton, NY
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Just to chime in here... The first project I did on my E30, before I knew about the UBB, was the oil pan gasket. I did NOT remove the tranny to remove the pan. It wasn't easy, but I did the job even without lifting the engine.
Oddly enough, after that was all back together, and hoses were changed, a month later I went for a drive, the clutch throw-out bearing broke, destroyed my flywheel sensors and tab, adn then I had to remove the tranny! That's what brought me here.
But you CAN remove the oil pan without touching the tranny.... _________________ Cosmo - 1985 BMW 325e, Single Owner, 265,000+ ORIGINAL miles and still going strong! But now on the East Coast and the salt air corrosion is eating my beautiful car alive...
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cmcon98
Joined: 13 Nov 2002 Posts: 1844 Location: Boston
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think what wazzu meant was that when the 260 tranny was used with the M50 engine in an E30/M50 swap, the pan was not removable without removing the tranny.
My point was that, since you'll have to install a new pan gasket on the M50 when you install the E34/M50 oil pan that's necessary for the swap, you probably won't need to remove the pan until at least the next clutch job, anyway. _________________ Cirrusblau '88 325iC 5-speed
Cosmosschwartz '99 M3 'vert 5-speed |
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wazzu70
Joined: 26 Jul 2005 Posts: 838 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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For clarification I meant with the M50/260 combo you cant get at the rear pan bolts like you can with the M20.
I guess its not the end of the world, but I wouldnt "out" myself like that. I do have worse luck than most so chances are really good I would have to do regular "inspections" while others probably wouldnt. You could probably get away with it and never know. Its always good to know about stuff ahead of time though instead of finding out about it later.
Yeah, its much cheaper to keep the 260 and less hassle because of stock driveline parts. To me its not worth it though not only because of the pan issue, but also because the 260 is kind of a weak trans. If its never bothered you before though, I guess use it. _________________ -Nick
1984 BMW 325e
1991 BMW 325i
1976 Honda CB400F Super Sport
"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" |
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cmcon98
Joined: 13 Nov 2002 Posts: 1844 Location: Boston
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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I agree it's not the stoutest trans there is. I'd only suggest it if the builder was on a budget and using a stock M50/2, which is only 20 HP more than the M20. If I convert my cabrio (I envision a very stock looking and sounding sleeper rather than a tuner-looking car, but hey, I'm an old guy of 45) I'll use an S50/2 and a ZF trans.
One thing I do know about the M50/260 combo is that the trans is canted a few degrees, so the shifter has to be bent slightly to stick straight up out of the console.
One of the things I love about BMWs is that so many parts across the years are interchangeable with minimal mods. The basic design language and architecture of the cars has stayed basically the same (with evolutionary changes) since throught the 2002, E21, E30 and through the current cars.
The fact that the M/S 50/2 engine family even comes close to bolting into the E30 is such a cool thing. I was at my fave junkyard today, and they just got an E46 330i. Wonder if that motor would fit into an E30? I think it's basically similar to the M50, but correct me if I'm wrong.... _________________ Cirrusblau '88 325iC 5-speed
Cosmosschwartz '99 M3 'vert 5-speed |
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wazzu70
Joined: 26 Jul 2005 Posts: 838 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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There was a post on one of the other boards about a guy who slipped in a 330 motor from an e46 . Im sure the S54 would fit as well. Its too bad the US got screwed and we got the stripped down non-M version of the S50/2 or else it would be a lot mroe desireable to go with that combo.
Sadly our versions are the same as the M variant with a little more stroke. _________________ -Nick
1984 BMW 325e
1991 BMW 325i
1976 Honda CB400F Super Sport
"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" |
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