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COOKED Brakes (photo)
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McK



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 1126
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:34 pm    Post subject: COOKED Brakes (photo) Reply with quote

I threw this in the racing forum, only because this was at a track event, on a 2003 M3 with rcomps and race pads (Cobalt, I think). This guy is notoriously hard on his brakes... the session before I snapped this photo he had flames shooting out of the wheels under full braking.

These were stock M3 cross drilled rotors before he went out on the course. Every single hole was FUSED full of what we assume was a combination of pad material and rotor shavings (you can see how darn worn those rotors are).



Just had to share that pic, it blew our mind.
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McK



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 1126
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:19 pm    Post subject: COOKED Brakes (photo) Reply with quote

The driver sent me a follow-up pic. This was his brake pad when he took it off the car:



Yes it's bent. Not quite down to the backing plate but very close.
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Chuck Baader



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 95
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent of a heavy car without brake cooling ducts. Chuck
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idanity



Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 3096
Location: N.W.U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just as a joke, try taking them into auto-zone for them to turn the rotors... Razz

and tell them, "i want to see the drilled spots again".. Twisted Evil
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Keith M



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 216
Location: West Linn, OR

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone had a brake pad crumble? Hawk HT-10's with 4 days on them (one in the wet). I seen small cracks and a few chips before but nothing like this. (A quarter size piece missing from the right front)

Keith
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Tom Olsson
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
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Location: Seattle, WA, US

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually did see that last weekend. We pulled a set of Pagid oranges off of Bills car that had 2 race weekends and an Enduro on them. The were falling apart with chunks flaking off with about 1/2 the pad left. I think they did see some rain, so I wonder if that's the common denominator, although I've not seen that before. Better safe than sorry, so we tossed 'em.
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idanity



Joined: 21 May 2005
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Location: N.W.U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good reply..

i was contemplating on trying the "hawk" pads, not knowing anyone with them, the "reviews" are useally biased..

Idea now i know..to stick with pagid or pbr metal masters Idea
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Tom Olsson
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've actually heard great things about Hawk HT-10's, and know several people that swear by them. I wouldn't write them off because of Keith's experience. The track puts huge stress on the brakes, and they become almost disposable. I've always got a spare set front and back in my kit all the time.

If you're shopping for E30 track pads, I've also heard very good things about Carbotechs and Porterfield R4's. It all really depends on your braking style, how much intial bite you want, and how good you are at modulating. I just went to a much more agressive pad from the R4 and honestly had problems. A couple of minor lock-ups, and then a major one in the heat of battle that resulted in a flat-spot on a brand new RA1. Confused
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Keith M



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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Location: West Linn, OR

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idanity,
For street driving I would not use Hawk HT-10's or other race pads. HPS or HP+ would be a better choice. Be aware that the more aggressive the pad the more dust they produce, plus the cost ($194 for the fronts)
This is the first time we have had any problems with Hawk. We did contact them and are sending the pads back to them for review. I'll bet that there is a new set of pads delivered to us next week.
FWIW The car is a 2900 lb e36 328. Stock rotors, cooling ducts and race pads. As Tom said, at the track you use your brakes HARD. Probably more in 20 min than a week or a month on the street. Try to make to the next track day and get a ride with an instructor, or if your really lucky, one of the PRO3 cars. Those things will pop your eyeballs out under braking. Shocked


Keith
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Steve D



Joined: 09 Aug 2004
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Carbotech XP10's on the front & 9's on the rear. I'd only recommend these with R-comp tires, though. Otherwise I'd suggest 9's in the front & 8's in the rear.

I think I could beat those photos, if I knew how to post a picture on the web. During a 3 hour enduro the cooling duct to the right front rotor severed, which caused the brake to overheat, which caused accelerated wear of the pads. At 2:48 into the race (12 minutes to go!) my pedal went to the floor coming into a corner. I pulled the e-brake and was able to slow down enough to make the corner, but had to pull into the pits with less than 10 min left in the race Evil or Very Mad . When I pulled onto the hot pits, the rotor was billowing smoke - a couple guys ran over with fire extinguishers thinking the car was on fire. Anyway, the next day when I pulled the wheel & looked at the brakes, I found that what had happened was the pad / rotor wore so thin (the pad was down to the backing plate) that the piston pulled the rubber seal out of the caliper, letting the fluid drain out and causing the brake failure. Also, things got so hot that the backing plate literally melted around the piston, and the two pieces welded themselves together. I have no idea what temps are required to weld two solid pieces of metal together, but I apparently hit it whatever it is!
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idanity



Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 3096
Location: N.W.U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve D wrote:
I

I think I could beat those photos, if I knew how to post a picture on the web. I have no idea what temps are required to weld two solid pieces of metal together, but I apparently hit it whatever it is!


- to post photos go to a free web space, (few are good, *here* 's my favorite)>

- i dont know the temps on brakes either, but i think its more than standard metals,...and i know you not only found the temperature, but exceeded it so greatly that it mightve been a wonderful show at nighttime...(well, not for you, but for the by-standers)...
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Last edited by idanity on Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Steve D



Joined: 09 Aug 2004
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

idanity wrote:
Steve D wrote:
I

I think I could beat those photos, if I knew how to post a picture on the web. I have no idea what temps are required to weld two solid pieces of metal together, but I apparently hit it whatever it is!


- to post photos go to a free web space, (few are good, *here* 's my favorite)>

- i dont know the temps on brakes either, but i think its more than standard metals,...and i know you not only found the temperature, but exceeded it so greatly that it mightve been a wonderful show at nighttime...(well, not for you, but for the by-standers)...


Where's you favorite? Oh, nevermind - I didn't catch the link under *here*.
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Steve D



Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 102
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/sdais/?action=view&current=DSC_0131.jpg


http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/sdais/?action=view&current=DSC_0132.jpg


OK - if I did this right (I'm not holding my breath here) there should be links to two pictures above, showing the end product of my brake-cooking (literal!) incident. IF the links work, note the warping of the backing plate around the piston. As I stated above, these two pieces have become one. I just finished rebuilding my calipers & draining the fluid, so hopefully everything will work ok in a couple weeks when I head to the track! Sad
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Chuck Baader



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 95
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, I assume you are running a 3" brake duct from someone like Bimmerworld? If that is the case, you certaily have the wrong pads. Try Mintex 1166 compound all round....have used them for years without issues. I do, however, use a brake ballance valve to modulate front to rear ballance. The Porterfield 1110s work well also. Good luck, Chuck
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Steve D



Joined: 09 Aug 2004
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck - I think the real cause of the problem was starting a 3 hour enduro with 3/4 of pad life remaining, rather than a new set. There was bad accident at the track that afternoon (fatality) which pushed everything back and left me with 1/2 hr to scramble to get everything set up for the enduro and not enough time to change pads. This was then compounded by the severed passenger-side brake duct, which I'm sure accellerated wear (the driver-side pads were very low by the end of the race, but not gone, whereas the passenger-side pads were eating into the backing plate).

I've been using Carbotech 10's for over a year, and this was the first brake-related problem I've had. I've heard good things about the Porterfields as well as Hawks, but haven't tried them.
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