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[Roadstergal]

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Originally posted by donaldan:
Haven't we learned the lesson of 9/11, Japanese imperial expansion, Hitler's domination of Europe and Starlin's Iron Curtain? Is our memory that short? Should we follow Spain and retreat from Iraq.

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What does unilateral assault on Iraq have to do with those scenarios?

I don't have a short memory. From what I'm reading here, I think I have a better grasp of history than most here.

Learning from history? We never do that. What the US is very bad at is how we handle withdrawl from a country after interference. We didn't learn from the experience when we supported the Mujahidin, who formed a radical opressive state when we left - we supported the 'warlords' to get them out, and as we're withdrawing, they are forming their own little Talibanistic pockets in Afghanistan.

As far as Iraq goes, George Bush didn't learn that his speeches sound like dead ringers for the speeches of General Frederick Stanley Maude. Does everyone know the significance of General Maude? "Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators."
We supported Iraq when it suited us to pit them against Iran, despite the fact that Saddam was in power and the US government knew that he was using chemical weapons against his people. That support, and our departure with him in power, undermines our moral authority to march in unilaterally.

By the way, Iraq keeps being brought up in this thread in connection with Al Queida. Does anyone care to bring up any data to refute the assertion - the assertion that even the current adminstration agrees with - that there was no cooperation or agreement between Al Quieda and Saddam Hussein's government?

[Roadstergal]

quote:

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Originally posted by board_nerd:


Al Keyda

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Bring it on

[Jarvis]

quote:

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Originally posted by Roadstergal:


Why is it?

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Arguing with liberals (aka Communists) is a waste of time... so nevermind. You obviously don't have the same sense of humor as me (and some other people on this board). Let's agree to disagree.

[BD325ic]

The terrorist's have been operating for decades and now they're better financed and equipped than they've ever been.

The US and its foreign policy has tampered with foreign governments to suit its needs ever since it rose to power.

The terrorists are not going to change their mission and the US won't stop hunting them down, there is no solution that's acceptable to both sides.

This affair will be long and bloody and will get worse before it gets better.

Bruce
95 325ic

[Roadstergal]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jarvis:
Arguing with liberals (aka Communists) is a waste of time... so nevermind.

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I wasn't arguging - I just wanted to know the rationale behind it. I can't argue until I know that. And I believe in the viability of a regulated market economy.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jarvis:
You obviously don't have the same sense of humor as me (and some other people on this board).

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Okeedokee, I'll join in. Let's bomb Belgium!

[patrick66]

Okay. As a retired USAF NCO with over five total years in the Middle East and having been to 40 or so countries in over 22 years, let me break down for you in the simplest terms what we face:

"We are not fighting you to get something in return. We are fighting you to eliminate you!" --- Hussein Musawi, Hesbollah terrorist thug/leader, referring to the West and the eventual desire of these terrorists to establish an Islamic republic IN THE USA!!! Look up CAIR on Google if you want to get an eye-full of what these bastards are all about. CAIR is a US-based Islamic think-tank/"charity"/funnel for $$$ flow to the terroristas.

It's not about us finding or not finding WMD's. It's not even about Iraq. It's about our War on Terrorism!!! Not just Iraq, or North Korea, or Iran, or even France! We must fight for freedom wherever and whenever in the world. Help nations establish democratically-elected republics. People have a natural yearning to be free, not enslaved and oppressed! Name one nation that we have went to war with and NOT helped them out afterwards to get back on their feet! We fight for peace through victory, not conquest.

A quote from Benjamin Franklin:
"Those who would sacrifice their freedoms for a little security deserve neither" and when asked by a woman after the signing of the Declaration of Independence "Well, Doctor, do we have a monarchy or a republic?" to which he replied "A republic, madam, if you can keep it!" Note we do not live in a democracy, but a reprsentative republic. Democracy inevitably leads to anarchy, as was so eloquently observed by Plato...

Freedom is never free!

I ask you this: Who do the terrorists want to see elected President, Mr. Bush or Sen. Kerry? And whom are YOU safer with leading the nation??? Remember this come Election Day! I have a nephew and a cousin in Iraq right now. I pray for their safety every day, as well as their fellow soldiers and the people they help protect. I know that what we're doing is right and just. Praise the Lord we have leaders in charge in our country who understand the grave threat these terror thugs pose and are willing to take the action to kill them. This is NOT a "law enforcement" problem that'll go away with a few indictments and war trials. This is war, boys and girls, and we must have the resolve to fight to win! The only way to ensure peace is our victory over terror! Peace is NEVER something that's negotiated!!! Just ask Neville Chamberlain...Hitler just loved his chats with him before WWII!

There really IS good and evil in the world. All you have to do is open your eyes and admit the truth...

[ 03-17-2004: Message edited by: patrick66 ]

[markf]

Patrick.. I concur. 100%

[Roadstergal]

quote:

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Originally posted by patrick66:
Name one nation that we have went to war with and NOT helped them out afterwards to get back on their feet!

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I named a few in my eariler post. Afghanistan is the most recent example.

Er, I read through your post, twice, and I don't quite understand your point. All I got out of it is that we need to eliminate terrorism, and I don't see how the current adminsitration's policies are doing that.

You say WMDs in Iraq were not the issue. But that is the only link the current administration could provide to justify invading Iraq under the auspices of the current "War on Terrorism." Preemtive strikes are nothing to do lightly. It's a Pandora's box to open up. Any nation, looked at in the right way, can be a threat to another; you almost saw that box explode with India and Pakistan, for example, and that story is not completed.

[jamminjames]

Patrick,

Here-here! My three boys are in the military getting ready rotate into Iraq - and one of them has a wife who's coming back from there. I've had emails from Iraq describing the general population consensus - generally they are eternally greatfull someone finally intervened. Greatfull to Bush and the USA. The news media is in the business to sell - and sensationalism and hype sells. In other words, the gory, bad, protesting type of news. Rarely do we see the majority of the people that are at ease with little fear of expressing their views. It's interesting that even a group in Iraq is now allowed the freedom to protest something - even the USA. Look back two years ago - you would have never seen that!
WMDs... It's common knowledge in Iraq (among the people) that they were on their way (in development). It was only a question of time. Evidence? Even though the chemicals that killed thousands of Iraqi people wouldn't be called WMDs, what would the next natural step be in the weapon evolution scale? To me it's just common sense...
We sat back and practically did nothing during the Clinton years and look what happened - 9/11 (Remember it took years to plan and execute). Now we have a president that took a stand and did something. Perfect decisions? No - nobody's perfect. But he acted. Imagine what would have happened if Clinton had been President on 12-07-41. Would Japanese be our second language? Just food for thought.

Maybe Iraq is not the bed of terrorism. But it's a piece of furniture in the bedroom. Our actions there has sure made other nations take notice. Did you notice that Iran is cooperating in the Nuclear checks. North Korea tested us a little by bowing up and then very quickly backed down. Have you noticed that even the European countries that may not agree about us going into Iraq are noticing the benefits from it - just read between the lines. And if you notice - the European countries that cried foul the loudest when we went into Iraq had the most to loose - in debts that Hussein owed to them. Read between the lines...

Well, I'll get off my soapbox for now... Until some other interesting topic comes up, like unions or some such nonsense...

James

[ 03-17-2004: Message edited by: JamminJames ]

[donaldan]

James, so very well said!

[patrick66]

We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. - - - George Orwell, 1947

Again, freedom is worth defending. The cost of freedom is never free. We should NEVER apologize to anyone or any nation for being the greatest nation on the face of the earth! Anyone who calls out for our help receives it. How many Americans do you know try to escape the US to the free societies of North Korea, or Saudi Arabia, or China? Do Americans escape south to Mexico for jobs? We are the beacon of light for all the world, and there are those in the world who would wish to extinguish that beacon because we ARE free! Kerry and his bunch wish us to share the world's ills and make us another Third World, UN-dependent nation, rather than help the world's nations escape despair and become free and prosperous.

We must be victorious, plain and simple. I will never apologize for the way I think, and I will also defend your right to disagree with me. Right and wrong & good and evil exist. Ours is the side of right & good. Too many people try to say that all nations are equal and all that pap. People that wish to do you, me, and our families and friends harm must be stopped. The fact that we don't need to sacrifice daily needs like our grandparents and parents did during WWII reinforces our abilities as a nation to thrive and fight. If we had to ration supplies, gas, sugar, and the sort like they did in WWII, folks would feel a greater sense of urgency to win. But, with little bites on TV, it's antiseptic to many. No sacrifices necessary...are we at war still???

A poll of Democrat voters showed the War on Terror barely registered on the things they cared about. Health care, jobs, and such were way up high on the priorities... Problem is, if al Quida or people anathemic to our way of life were to seize power here, jobs and health care would mean little. Survival would be the order of the day, instead. Our security would be run by the thugs and despots we so much need to eliminate from our midst.

If I change one mind to see the truth, I'm a happy camper. Think about your future as an American citizen. Who do you want your grandkids to see running the country in 2040?

[XR5Resurrection]

I'm a Spaniard, born and raised in Spain. I'm now a US citizen in the US military, but my family and blood remains in Spain. Though Spain has been ravaged by ETA attacks for years, this last attack shocked us all. Unfortunately IMO, spaniards have not done what the PP has asked them not to do, to stick together and not to be quick to point a finger. Certain areas of Spain may be against the war in Iraq (I think mostly up north), but MANY in southern areas are in favour and have good US/Spain relations. Honestly I am extremely surprised and dissapointed that the Spanish people have reacted the way they did, voting out Jose Maria Aznar, and voting in a Socialist PM. They are only hurting themselves by doing that, but they will see. Seems a lot has changed since I last lived there. I really hate to say but the Spanish have been defeated by terrorists. I'm glad I'm a US citizen, fighting against and not giving in to terrorism

[kirchenmaus]

Patrick and James speak, and i must say very well, for me. it's people like you who make me wish i could put more time into how this world is run.
i voted for Bush, his bad grammar, good beliefs, and all his decisions good or bad.

[Roadstergal]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040319/ap_on_re_eu/spain_no_bull_3

BTW - I keep hearing the offensive against Iraq likened to the war on terrorism. Could someone please tell me what connection pre-invasion Iraq had to terrorism?

Or is it just more of:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040320/wl_nm/iraq_retaliation_dc_1

quote

Quote:

"Rumsfeld was saying we needed to bomb Iraq. ... We all said, 'but no, no. Al Qaeda is in Afghanistan," recounts Clarke, "and Rumsfeld said, 'There aren't any good targets in Afghanistan and there are lots of good targets in Iraq."'

quote:

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"I think they wanted to believe that there was a connection" between Iraq and al Qaeda, Clarke tells "60 Minutes."

"But the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was sitting there, saying, 'We've looked at this issue for years. For years we've looked and there's just no connection,"' says Clarke.

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[donaldan]

Roadstergel, please take this as a friend, I respect your opinion and I hear what you are saying but is the Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, the subsequent poinsoning of Kurdish people and stealing of Kuwaiti properties and torching of the oil wells reason enough to label Saddam as a Hitler like monster, and must be defeated?

We can draw parallel between Saddam and Hitler. I see great similarity with Hitler's invasion of Poland and subsequent treatment and confiscation of Jewish and other properties. The British Chamberland tried to appease Hitler and see what happened? Do we really want to make friend with the one who kicked our a....s. I am a diehard liberal too but I certainly don't want to be stupid!!